BUCK: This is a breaking news story that I want to tell you guys about, because this is gonna result in, I think, a lot of conversation all across the country. Thursday NBC News has an exclusive where Lester Holt is going to interview the Capitol police officer responsible for shooting and killing Ashli Babbitt. So tomorrow the person, the officer from Capitol Police who killed Ashli Babbitt will come forward.
So we’ll finally, Clay, know who it is, and also will and sit down for questions about what happened there. Also, noteworthy that they just recently had the United States Capitol Police Office of Professional Responsibility to determine the officer’s conduct was lawful. That was just on Monday, an official clearing of him by Capitol Police. Clay, a lot that we’re gonna dive into when this happens.
CLAY: Yeah, I’m surprised on this for a couple of levels, Buck. One this guy’s name is not out there. This story, otherwise, might start to disappear. I know the Democrats are trying to make January 6th seem like an insurrection and they continue to want to have the hearing and everything else. It’s strange to me a bit after not being public in any way for this long that he would decide to go public.
And it’s particularly strange because there is a wrongful death lawsuit that has been filed by Ashli Babbitt’s family. So the reason why I bring that up is when you are dealing with a lawsuit, whatever you say can be used as a statement, as evidence in that lawsuit. And so whatever this Capitol Police officer tells Lester Holt is going to be able to used by the family of Ashli Babbitt filing the lawsuit.
Now, it’s different if you’ve already said everything that you’re going to say, but this guy hasn’t spoke in any way publicly. And so, if I were a lawyer advising him, I would not be advising him to sit and talk with any member of the media, and particularly that’s the case when it’s not like his name has been dragged through the mud in any way and he may feel like he needs to speak out in order to reclaim his good name.
So far, miraculously — considering how quickly every other police officer’s entire political history and work history is known 20 minutes after shootings occur — this guy hasn’t been a public figure yet. So both of those factors, to me, when I see this news story which just broke which we’re discussing about this Capitol Police officer going public, that’s what’s surprising to me about it.
BUCK: I also think that there’s going to be a lot of… Once we know who this person is — and we will in a little over 24 hours — we can deep dive more into the justification for this shooting. Capitol Police have said that this was a reasonable what we call a legal shoot or within the bounds of the law.
BUCK: Yeah, yeah. A lawful shoot. And you’ve gotta wonder, so shooting an unarmed woman in the neck through a door…? Now, granted, it’s a barricaded door. There was a riot going on. There were people who were assaulting law enforcement officers who should be prosecuted and held accountable for violence against police officers, right? We black the blue always or we don’t back the blue.
CLAY: Right.
BUCK: But there’s a difference between backing the blue and everything all cops do is okay. I’ve never taken that position, Clay, and I know you haven’t either. There are even… When I was in the NYPD intel division, they would talk about “perps in uniform,” meaning that there were sometimes guys that wear the uniform that act in criminal ways and need to be held accountable for that.
But what exactly was…? So this officer believed that if this 130-pound unarmed woman got through the door, that she was going to be an imminent threat to the life of the armed Capitol police officers and members of Congress that were on the other side of the door? I’d like to dive into this a little more because we see riot conditions frequently across the country, and if a police officer said, “I was scared, so I pulled my gun and shot the person in the neck who was throwing a rock at riot police,” if this was a BLM riot, we all know it would be homicide investigation right away.
CLAY: No doubt.
BUCK: This cop’s life would be ruined.
CLAY: Instantly.
BUCK: But because it’s the so-called insurrection — and let’s also remember that they lied about an officer being beaten to death with a fire extinguisher for months on the January 6 riot. They lied. The media lied about this for months which created an environment in the early period of the discussion around this where we said, “Well, it was a lethal force incident in both directions.” No, Clay, this was a lethal force incident in one direction: Police against a rioter. In this case, Ashli Babbitt, an unarmed Air Force veteran. That’s what it was.
CLAY: Which is why it’s surprising to me, again, that this person is talking to a media member, because he’s gonna make his name public now. So if there’s ever been anything that he’s ever done in his background that’s questionable — that’s the way these things go — the media will investigate. They’ll find out if he has anything in his history.
And then the second part of this, it’s going to be used in a civil court wrongful death deposition and civil case against him, right? So everything that he says he’s going to have to stand behind in any sort of eventual deposition or court proceeding surrounding the wrongful death allegations of Ashli Babbitt. So I’m intrigued to see what he’s going to say, but if I were his lawyer, I would be telling him to say nothing at all. He has nothing to gain from this.
CLAY: It’s a great question procedurally because one of the issues that has been argued for a long time is that police officers should be indemnified. The reality is, most police officers, Buck, don’t have very much in terms of assets. So I always think that’s a little bit of a flawed logic. In other words, the reason you sue a police officer is not to try to take money from him or her, typically. It’s to compel testimony and figure out what actually happened. The person who’s going to have to pay is the larger community.
BUCK: Right, the federal government are the pockets that you want to get into for a lawsuit like this.
CLAY: That’s right.
BUCK: But is the suit really against him as an individual in his personal capacity or is it against him with Capitol Hill Police? We may have to dig into this a little bit but that would make a big difference.
CLAY: I think you’re right that he would not in theory have personal liability.
BUCK: Right.
CLAY: But, again, the average police officer might have $150,000 in assets, right? Most police officers are not independently wealthy. So the reason why you would be filing the lawsuit is to go after the larger entity. But I think — and this what I said when the lawsuit was filed. Look, I’m not an expert. I don’t know Ashli Babbitt’s family. But I think the reason that they are filing this wrongful death lawsuit is to find out what really happened, not necessarily for the monetary aspects of this, because the story of what happened to her has mostly been covered up on why she was shot.
BUCK: I think they want to get ahead of that eventuality, Clay, because there’s obviously very troubling political dynamics at work with all this, whereby I think it’s clear that if Ashli Babbitt had different politics, this would have been treated very differently by the Department of Justice, by the Capitol Hill Police, by any entity involved here.
CLAY: There’s zero doubt.
BUCK: It’s all part of what is used as a demonization of Trump supporters in general. We are all the insurrectionists now. It was not an insurrection. Not a single person has been charged with rebellion or insurrection by the federal government from January 6, because they know they would fail. They are being charged with assault on police officers, destruction of property and trespassing and obstructing government proceeding.
CLAY: Happens all the time.
BUCK: It’s not happening with this case, that’s for sure. They’re gonna fight this. The government will fight the Ashli Babbitt lawsuit to the end because —
CLAY: If Ashli Babbitt… I think it’s a great point by you. If Ashli Babbitt had died in a BLM protest, we would have known the shooter instantaneously, and she would have been a martyr. Instead, many people out there on the left have said she deserved what happened to her. We’ll find out the story evidently tomorrow as we continue to chase it down.
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