BUCK: We’ve actually got our friend Amber Smith joining us now as promised. Amber is somebody who understands the beyond-the-horizon counterterrorism mission very well, though she was in country in Afghanistan as part of our efforts there, as part of the fight against the Taliban. She was a Kiowa helicopter combat pilot. She was also a Department of Defense official under the Trump administration. Amber, thanks so much for making time for us.

AMBER: Of course. Great to be with you.

BUCK: So, we’re hearing a lot about over-the-horizon or beyond-the-horizon counterterrorism capability here from the Biden administration. As somebody who was flying a Kiowa, understands how the aerial assets will play into this, what should people know about how that will actually work and what are some of the capabilities we will have going forward, given that we’ve got this military withdrawal in country underway?

AMBER: Yeah. So when you hear over-the-horizon capabilities, it really means what aerial assets we have available to strike in country that isn’t currently there. So we have, you know, all of the best capabilities in the world to be able to continue these counterterrorism operations. We’ve got strike groups in the region, in the Middle East. We have B-52 bombers at Al Udeid and Qatar.

They’re able to do long-distance strike operations in Afghanistan. Then we have multiple other air bases — UAE, Kuwait, multiple in Kuwait. So the Air Force is able to do sustained, you know, fighter-bombing, tanker surveillance operations. But I will say, just a few months ago in June when they still thought that they were going to have this absolutely perfect, orderly transition of power when the military left and handed over to the Afghanistan government, they were still trying to look and figure out about the extent of those over-horizon capabilities.

Because the thing is, they work fine when you still have contractors on the ground or you still have friendlies on the ground and a stable Afghan military that is able to talk people on to targets, give accurate grids for precision-guided weapons and all of that. We no longer have that. So the risk has dramatically increased when it comes to CIVCAS, civilian casualties. It really just increases the room for error when you’re operating through the lens of essentially a soda straw.

CLAY: Amber, I know we’re still trying to figure out… Thanks for coming on. This is Clay. I know we’re still trying to figure out how we’re gonna get all these American citizens out of Afghanistan and it’s a total mess. But you had experience over there. You’ve seen this happen. We’ve been talking a lot on the show about top military advisers and top intelligence advisers saying, “We told Joe Biden not to do it in this manner.”

Are you surprised that speaking out is already occurring? And when and/or how do we determine who should be blamed? I know that Joe Biden ultimately bears all the blame because he’s the commander-in-chief, but how does this process play out in what is likely to be a long-running, pointing-a-finger situation between intelligence agencies, the military, and the White House?

AMBER: Yeah, well, I think you really need to break it down into two different categories. One, Afghanistan war as a whole and the failures that have come along with it through multiple administrations. And then the other one is the botched withdrawal — that is solely on President Joe Biden. He’s the commander-in-chief, and he made that decision.

When it comes to military leaders specifically focusing on this withdrawal, they are not completely not to blame. I am extremely baffled that the Centcom commander, General McKenzie, agreed to the plan. And this brings up another point. I want to know, was it the Joint Chiefs of Staff that drew up the plans to close down Bagram air base and have that as a course of action for a decision-maker to go with that plan where they closed down Bagram air base and really thought that they were going to be able to use Kabul airport as a single exit point in the country in case things went bad?

So while military leaders may have known some intelligence about, the capabilities of the table and may have voiced them to the Biden administration, why did they move forward and agree to a plan that really, really put a lot of American lives at risk, as we’re seeing today, in terms of the security situation in Kabul?

BUCK: We’re speaking to Amber Smith. She’s the author of the Danger Close. She’s a veteran of the Afghanistan war, a Kiowa helicopter pilot who deployed to Afghanistan, also former deputy assistant to the secretary of defense under the Trump administration.

And, Amber, what should we be looking for now? I mean, it’s all dependent… Getting these Americans out is dependent on… Really it’s like a two-step process, right, getting around the risk of Taliban security to the airport and then the airlift to get them out and get Americans to, you know, safe haven, safe harbor.

Back on U.S. soil, preferably, but obviously get them out just to a place where they’re no longer at high risk. What do you expect that to look like in the days ahead, and do you have any confidence that the Biden administration has the planning for that lined up properly?

AMBER: Well, I think in terms of getting American citizens as well as Afghans who helped the American military, getting them to Kabul airport should be the absolute, number-one focus right now. And, unfortunately, we’ve seen them set up a perimeter at Kabul International Airport. But the problem is that the Taliban has set up checkpoints all throughout the city all on the outside of that permiter.

So people who are trying to, you know, go in through the funnels that take them into Kabul airport, they’re getting stopped by the Taliban on the way. And we’re already seeing, you know, common Taliban tactics in terms of beatings and things. It’s just absolutely brutal which is what the Taliban does. And so at some point the military is likely going to have to expand outside of that perimeter in order to get these Americans and the people that worked with us out.

Because they’re not going to be able to get through some of the Taliban checkpoints on their own and that’s where, like, the our eyes the State Department, let’s see the president need to step it up in terms of direct communication to the Taliban more like what we saw with Trump administration about, “Look, do not touch our people. There’s gonna be absolute consequences directly to the Taliban if you do not open up these channels to get our people into the Kabul airport.”

BUCK: Combat pilot and veteran Amber Smith. Amber, thanks so much for being with us, sharing your expertise. We appreciate it.

AMBER: Thanks, Buck. Thanks.